Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

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Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  Mark Fuller on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:49 pm

Wow. Very impressive home-made laminar nozzles. I especially like the streams produced by John and Mario. If you have seen the nozzles commercially produced for personal home/pool use, I bet you will see that they do not compare to the quality of your streams. I was so intrigued by all of the innovation and ingenuity I saw on this site. I have so many questions:

John, Mario, Lite Glow: What do you guys do for a living? Are any of you engineers? Maybe you are in the wrong business.

Mario, please post more videos of your final nozzle in operation in the ground. I would love to see the cuts and light show in the final product. I would especially like to see your wind sensor and cutter in action. I like the large marbles in your garden. Have you thought of having the the laminar stream terminate on the surface of the marble in a manner that maintains a laminar dissipation of the stream around the surface of the marble and down to a drain beneath the marble? It will probably take a lot of experimentation to avoid splashing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh9u20-FS9o Another option would be to use a spherical sponge made of transparent/translucent material as the terminous of the stream so that in the evening when the lighted stream hits it the sphere glows.

John, it has been awhile since you have posted any videos. Let's see your genius in action.

Mario's air-bleed valve was brilliant. I assume you used a lathe to construct the parts. Has anyone been able to construct a similar valve using simple tools and material, i.e., no lathe?

Has anyone experimented with filter sponges and scouring pads and noticed a difference between the two? Which is more efficient at eliminating turbulence?

Coffee stir sticks versus Soda Straws. It seems that some of you use the smaller stir sticks while others use the larger soda straws, and some use no straws at all without any noticeable variation in the quality of your laminar stream.
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  covewi on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:30 pm

WOW - Mark Fuller. No I am Impressed!

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  John on Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:46 pm

Mr. Mark Fuller,

It is an honor to be chatting with you!!!!! I don't know how many times I have read and re-read your patents. Ever since I saw your work at Disneyworld when I was 15 years old I have been enthralled by it. Now I am at the stage of life where I can experiment and mimic to a small degree some of the magic that you have created. To be complimented by you is an honor that is well.....well has left me speechless!

Yes, I am a mechanical engineer. I graduated from the University of Michigan with a master's in mechanical engineering. I work at L-3 Communications in Salt Lake City. However, but more so, I am love with water, lights and tinkering around. I have been working on this fountain for over a year and a half now and finally feel that I am getting somewhere, but there is so much more to learn about these fountains. I can't seem to spend enough time in my little lab playing in the water. It consumes much of my thoughts as my wife would testify. Currently I am working on my electronics to control the stepper motor cutter and the RGB LEDs. It's slow going because as a M.E. I don't fully grasp the concept of every little nuance of electronics, so I blow chip and fry electronics, and motors. I've learned to purchase 5 times the quantities that I expect to use while prototyping because of this. This has been an amazing project and a great learning experience because it has used everything that I have learned to date. The hardest part about this project has been finding the pieces that will work without having to have a machine shop build it for you. Of course some of it is necessary, like the brass nozzle. Other pieces like the blade is made out of bent aluminum sheets cut up with tin snips. The filters currently are just swamp cooler pads. Of course this would have never happened if it hadn't been this community. This little piece of the web is a great resource and very generous with information. Not everything was learned first hand. I had the chance of learning from others and their experiences.

Thank you for spending the time to chat with us. It really is an honor. Someday I would like to see your work again. It's been about 15 years since I've seen a laminar nozzle in action.
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  Leonardo on Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:03 am

WOW.... Mark Fuller in person!!
This is really quite an honor... thank you a lot for joining this forum and a big welcome to you. You are the authentic NOZZLE MASTER!

Although I had not the opportunity to see any of your fountains yet I always was amazed by the excellence showed in every Wet Design project. You have been able to join together science, engineering, art, lights and music... and water of course, like no others.

I would like to tell you a little secret... I have some amazing websites addresses saved in my favorites and every time I think that I am doing the things great it is just the time to visit that sites to calm down my own ego... and yours is the first one!

Your achievements are absolutely amazing. Thank you again for joining us! cheers

All the best,
Leonardo.

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  Magic-nozzle on Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:41 am

Ohh my goodness, hello Mr. Mark Fuller! I first have to lay back in ma chair and breath some air. I can’t believe it, thank you so much for taking your time to talk with us. I am totally amazed. It's a great Honor to talk with you.

You don't have a idea what your presence here means to us (me), this is just having Birthday and Christmas together.

I learned so much from your video (s) and scripts, I watched it hundreds of times, specially the one showing in the German Discovery channel (Bellagio Fountains outside and specially you showing your first nozzle building in school class 1977s), and this was the start for me for everything. So i just want to say thank you Mr. Fuller you are such a idol for all of us. I still can’t believe it i am talking to you. The wonderful work and gigantic projects you have donne with Wet Design, I can’t catch this in a Word. Incredibly genius, Out of this world.

Thank you so much for your compliments, but our work is nothing against your brilliant inventions. We just try to step a tiny little bit in your verry Big footsteps.

Now to your questions, i am just a crazy hobby builder, in real life i am a Professional Magician (No joke). Water, light and colors are things that i love since i am a child, to control water and lighten it up, is a dream that came thru with this project. Building the Electronics around it is also so cool, i love to build stuff like this.

I try to take a video soon, the problem is my camera is very bad in night shoots, the laminar stream is not showing the brightness as it really is, and can’t catch the beautyfull water light FX. With a professional Camera it’s not a problem, but I don’t have something like this.

I couldn't resist to try to push one of my big marbles at the end of my stream, and wow, what a nice display, it looks fabulous, no splashing, that’s really a new thing i didn’t realised that this will work. No splashing, as long as i don't do cuts or making any turbulence for my light fix or the wind is going into the water, then it’s splashing terribly around, too bad. I can't wait to see this at night.

I really like to see how it looks when you shoot to that translucent sponge, this must be an amazing cool effect. What a great Idea again! May i ask you what kind of sponge this is?

Yes, i used my little lathe to produce the air-bleed valve, is there a simple solution out there for that, making one without a lathe with simple tools, you make me curiously?

I think we all try a lot of using different things to slow down the water but we don’t have experience from one person try all this things in the same testing conditions. So it's hard to tell what is the best. In my first 6" nozzle i used smaller diameter straws, similar like “Coffee stir sticks” but longer, this nozzle was smaller than the new one, had a nice stream but not over 14 foots, so i was building a bigger 8" one.

I am sorry i am asking you, but what really makes the difference, is there a big difference?, can you just give us just a little push in a direction? I have full understanding if not, but this is so exciting.

I really would like to experimenting with many of this things, but this takes enormous time and patience, after one and a half year working on it, i am happy it’s working, and ok for my Garden, but who knows, maybe next year i start over with the super Nozzle *SMILE*

A big problem is the cutting mechanics, when i started, i had a close to perfect cut / uncut, then i push up the water pressure, and ohh no! The cut was bad again. That's the reason why my uncut is not that nice then it was, but at the moment i need a break, i am tired of cutting tests, its the hardest part of all, specially the drain, how to catch the splashing water and bring it away from the stream, specially after the uncut, that no drop is falling back. I use some sponge to reduce the splashback, but this is not enough.

Now its time to stop and again thank you join the forum. it's incredibly.

Kind Regards

Mario


Last edited by Magic-nozzle on Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pbracer on Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:37 am

Mark Fuller wrote: I like the large marbles in your garden. Have you thought of having the the laminar stream terminate on the surface of the marble in a manner that maintains a laminar dissipation of the stream around the surface of the marble and down to a drain beneath the marble? It will probably take a lot of experimentation to avoid splashing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh9u20-FS9o Another option would be to use a spherical sponge made of transparent/translucent material as the terminous of the stream so that in the evening when the lighted stream hits it the sphere glows.

Mark

I first noticed this purely by accident when a clear plastic ball blew across the pool and got stuck under the stream. It caused the entire ball to "glow" with the color from the LED. It was quite amazing how the stream continued around the ball and the ball was seemingly stuck in the middle of the stream and just stayed there. I have tried several times since to stick the ball back in the stream, but i cannot make it stay. Holds for several seconds and then releases.

I did try using both sponges and scouring pads. I couldn't get the sponges to work well, i'm guessing that they were not as pourous as i wanted them to be. I have used scouring pads only, scouring and straws, scouring and screens, and screens only. My best to date was scouring pads and screens of varying hole diameter. The trick was to first get an output orifice that was precise so as to rule out that as the reason for a "bad" experiment.

Thanks for creating this phenomenon, it has and still is a fun "puzzle" of a project to perfect.

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  Mark Fuller on Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:17 am

Thank you all for your kind remarks. The excitement from those on this forum is wonderful. Remember: It does not take a genius to build something amazing so long as he has enough money to throw at the project. Any average idiot can build anything with unlimited funds. The real genius is in building something amazing from what you have laying around -- the MacGyver approach. The more home-made the invention is, the more impressive it is. Building something with little or no money forces you to be a genius and compels you to innovate. Inventors that have plenty of funds backing their projects are tempted to get lazy and "spend" their way around true innovation. That is why I enjoy taking a peek at forums like this, because it gives me a chance to see real ingenuity in action.

John: I hope your job allows you to work on projects that you love. It makes all the difference.

Mario: Combining the mind of a magician with engineering is a great combination. There is nothing better than dazzling people and leaving them forever in a state of wondering "how'd he do that?!!"

As for straws, I have not done extensive testing with house-hold straws to know which is truly better, which is why I put the question out there. Theoretically, skinnier straws will create more laminar flow, but then you lose head due to increased surface friction. Perhaps there is a way to dip the straw pack in a solution that will coat the inside of the straws with a friction-reducing coat. But even then you would still have limitations caused by the small diameter of the stir sticks and the finite size of water molecules. The question then is, how much head loss do you get using stir sticks versus soda straws -- a good science project for a school science fair.

As for the spherical sponge -- maybe a craft store would carry something like that. The reason I said sponge is because a sponge would reduce the mount of splashing you get when you cut the stream. But for the same glowing sphere effect you could also use a transparent or translucent marble instead of chrome marbles.

Sounds like some of you are getting burned out on the cutter mechanism, while others get burned out on the electronics. My advice -- take a break on those problems and turn your focus to a new problem. Come back to it later. Right now, most of you are trying to duplicate what you have seen commercial fountains do. Why not try something new that you have never seen before? You may come up with something more impressive than the standard cutter mechanism or light show and save your self a lot of frustration and lost time.

Other Tips: Here's a tip that you will get from any patent attorney -- keep an inventor's notebook to document all of your new ideas and when you get them. Also, if you come up with an idea that you really think is novel and a valuable improvement on the state of the art, go talk to a patent attorney about it before or soon after you publish it on this forum so you don't lose your patent rights.

Good luck to you all --
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hello

Post  liteglow on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:10 am

Mark Smile

As I say to everyone that join this forum: Welcome !!
It`s great to see that you join this little forum of home-inventors, and to share some ideas and give us some more hope Wink

Haha I no engineer Razz I work at a fruit company here in Norway (Bama) !
But I did go my first year on Mechanical, then Electromechanic, and last year as an Automechanic !
But did not find any jobs that was in my interest..
My hobby is to do learn\build and do stuff that not is common to everybody else Wink
I have many different projects going on, beside my laminar fountain. I also have built myself an Full Color Laser graphic scanner.

I actually did not know anything about laminar water one year ago.
I just know that I want to have a water beam in my garden.
First I thought that all I need was a water valve and water pump .. haha

Then I discovered that I need allot more, and now I have 2 working laminar jets with cutter, a 16 relay USB board connected to a computer.
And soon I will start building my LED light with fiber optic...

I soon discovered that it was hard to find any info about laminar jets, so I created this small little free forum to collect information and to help each other how to build fountains and laminar jumping jets Smile

Btw: when you talked about job, I did E-Mail WET some months ago, asking if they ever planning doing some projects in Norway haha Wink

And thank you again for your inputs of word here Smile Smile
After all, this forum never have been here if it not have been for you ..


Cheers

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Post  Sceptre on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:39 am

Hi Mark,
Thank you for all of your great work.
It was a trip to Las Vegas earlier this year that inspired me to build my own nozzle; your work at the Bellagio is fantastic.
In answer to your question "Has anyone experimented with filter sponges and scouring pads and noticed a difference between the two" is yes, that is what I am doing at the moment. I have found that by putting various grades or scouring pads after my straw stack makes a huge difference to the flow. By inserting a fairly coarse pad followed by two finer pads increased the distance by about 4 feet if I reverse the pads i.e. the fine ones first it seems to have no effect. I am building my second nozzle today and will allow more room for filter pad combinations and continue my experiments. I will post my results.
Once again thanks for your work and inspiration.
Keith.

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  Magic-nozzle on Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:15 am

Hello Mark

Thank you so much for your reply.

You motivate me to finish my new video showing my finalised project, so here it is, i hope you and the other readers like it.

Sorry for the poor quality, specially the night shots are not very good, the Laminar light is much brighter in real person than in the video, and the light flash effects came not 20% to it how they really look.



Yes you are right, i need a break with this and enjoy solving other interesting problems. Maybe after a while i have new power to perfect my system. Specially the Cutter and a longer perfect Laminar flow. Once the laminar Virus catches you, it won’t let you go for a long time.

Thank you for your inputs for the patents’, but one Problem is, to realise when i found something new that is good enough for a patent.

Thank you also for your explanation because the straws, it’s not an easy thing, and to technically understand what happens with the water when...

But try and error is a funny thing when someday a solution is hitting me. Smile

Thank you for your time.

Kind Regards

MARIO
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  oldsparky on Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:57 pm

Hi laminar loonies,
as a nozzle newbie, my own laminar heros are names like Filip, Mario, John and covewi.
I'm humbled further to hear your respect for someone who is actually *your* hero, Mr Mark Fuller.

Keep up the good work and keep posting your tips 'n' tricks, hard earned in your experiments, which give us all an idea of what can actually be achieved in a "home-build".

Thanks again.

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  liteglow on Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:30 pm

oldsparky wrote:Hi laminar loonies,
as a nozzle newbie, my own laminar heros are names like Filip, Mario, John and covewi.
I'm humbled further to hear your respect for someone who is actually *your* hero, Mr Mark Fuller.

Keep up the good work and keep posting your tips 'n' tricks, hard earned in your experiments, which give us all an idea of what can actually be achieved in a "home-build".

Thanks again.

Oldsparky


Heroes actually Wink haha... Thanx man that is great to hear cheers
Yes I hope everybody share and post ideas whenever they pop up :-)

My project is under snow at this moment, so I will use the winter to maybe rebuild my nozzles better, try to get the cutter better, add fiber cables, and maybe make a splash house Smile

I just HOPE that no pipes under the ground is leaking after the winter Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:57 am

.


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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  John on Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:41 am

Here is my theory on the water.

As the water enters the straws it is pretty chaotic, particles moving in many directions and different speeds. As the water passes through the straws (depending on the length and diameter) it will create a parabolic velocity profile, where in the center the water is moving the fastest and on the edge it is moving the slowest. Now as all of these profiles enter into the last chamber the water creates a nice average profile, and everything is moving at the same speed (more or less). I believe that having everything moving at the same speed is the key. Even though there are several different turns the water is moving at the same speed and that is why it looks crystal clear.

That's my take on it.
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:28 am

.


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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:04 am

Just doing some maths doodling. With a 1/2" stream that is making an arc 6' high and 12' long, the stream is travelling at around 29ft/sec. If the nozzle housing is 8" in diameter and 12" long, it will take 9 seconds for water entering the base of the nozzle to reach the exit orifice.

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:06 pm

Another seemingly illogical design feature. Most patents and ideas include several screens in the nozzle, including following the straws. That presumably means a metal disk with numerous small holes in it. Once again that is going to force most of the water molecules to execute a right-angle turn when they hit the disk in order to get through the holes. That seems like something that would generate, not remove turbulence.

Is that actually the sort of screen that is being used by people, or does it mean something like flyscreen? Either way it surely still causes a disturbance in the flow. Can anyone explain the apparent anomaly?

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  John on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:21 pm

I agree there should be anything after the straws. I think that having anything after the straws would only cause more turbuluence however small it might be. Push enough water through the nozzle and those small eddies will be large enough to affect the stream. My first design (4" nozzle) just used straws and no screen after the straws. I would compress the straws so much that I would have to use a hammer to shove the straws into place. I was always having slipping and the straws would float up to the top of the nozzle. This definitely would ruin everything.
I have since moved to the larger 8" nozzle and have not pursued the compressed straws idea. I still really like the idea of not having a screen after the straws.

I also like your idea on the cutter mechanism. I have played around with some different designs and I can't seem to get it to work as I would like. I know what you are saying about the cutter and I was playing around with the cutter the other day swinging a metal ruler as fast as I can at the stream and at different angles. I no matter how fast I could swing it there always seemed to be a nose on it.

If I had a high speed camera then I could calculated how fast I was swinging my ruler and we could come it to the 5ms that you calculated.

The other thing to consider is the more moving parts that are attached to the nozzle the greater the chance of creating vibrations which could disrupt the stream.

Just FYI.
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:28 pm

.


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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  John on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:34 pm

razor edge? No. When I was swinging the ruler is was about .020" (.5mm) thick. My cutter that I have right now is probably somewhere around that size as well.
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:46 pm

.


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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  John on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:53 pm

The best way to put photos on here is to have an account with photobucket or flickr. I believe that is how people have been doing it. I have only posted video hosted on Youtube.

I agree with you that the sharper the better. I would love to see what you have designed. I know I have played around with different shapes and angles for the blade, as well as a number of others. The results were marginal.
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:29 am

What is wrong with this forum? My screen is covered with little messages saying "Upgrade to Pro today! Bandwidth Exceeded. Photobucket"

Looks like it is everyone on forumotion.com. See http://help.forumotion.com/manage-the-appearance-of-your-forum-f45/only-topic-jalokim-themes-image-bandwidth-problems-t34703-210.htm

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  John on Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:10 pm

What is wrong with this forum? My screen is covered with little messages saying "Upgrade to Pro today! Bandwidth Exceeded. Photobucket"

Looks like it is everyone on forumotion.com. See http://help.forumotion.com/manage-the-appearance-of-your-forum-f45/only-topic-jalokim-themes-image-bandwidth-problems-t34703-210.htm
Thanks pmolsen. Thanks for looking into that. I fixed it per your suggestions and changed the skin. Let me know what you think? Put your feedback here please.
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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

Post  pmolsen on Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:14 pm

No proble.
PS. Any idea what sort of air bleed valve Mario is using?

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Re: Very Impresive Laminar Nozzles

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