Liteglow`s laminar project

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Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:04 am

Here is my videos of my project..




This is the first test of the laminar, with a drilled hole in the plastic Wink easy and simple..
I did use a flashlight to make light in the beam.

And I did just point the light into the water (no magic there)

And to create a wave I did just hit it with my flashlight... easy and simple..





Here is my first test with a cutter.
I use a small cheap solenoid to cut off the water !
The cutting was great, but the water did fall down in the "output" hole Surprised so when I cut the power off the solenoid,
the beam was broken by the water that was floating on the hole..

So my next mission is to make a shield that will let the water flow away from the hole Smile

Thank you for wathing..
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:41 pm

here is a flash video of how I want to have my setup..
But I want to have 4 laminar jets Smile


http://home.monet.no/~bjornaro/diverse/water/Laminar.swf



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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:39 pm

Ok, Here is a picture of how I think I "maybe" want to have my fountain in the garden..






I still not so sure how I going to design it..
So if you have any suggestion please feel free to comment Smile

My idea was to have 4 laminar jet.. the 2 last one should hit as a "water bell" over the fountain...
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:12 am

I like the idea of several jets with jumping water. looks great!
Special thnaks for your cool Videos!
Thanks for Sharing it.

Magic-Nozzle
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UPDATE !

Post  liteglow on Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:11 pm

Today I did receive my new pump Very Happy
It was a Flow 4500 (ltr.hour) professional underwater pump..

The pump did actually have power to maybe be used on 2 of my laminar jets Smile (i don't want them to go so high)
I was out and doing my first outside test, I did mount the nozzle "quick" together with some straws and a sponge..

But the result was not that good... hmz
As you can see on the picture, it did only stay laminar half the way.





Maybe it`s my hole that not is perfect...
Or maybe it`s the straws inside, maybe the size... ?

I need to rebuild it better, and make the water go longer...
Need a drilled metal ring to the water flow !
And I need to start on the cutter..


But remember, it was UNDER freezing point outside today Razz
So the water did actually freeze to ice after some time LOL !



I dont know if you can see on the picture, but THAT IS ICE on my laminar nozzle affraid
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Hi Filip, WOW, great you got your Pump! Looks very good. Thank you posting this pictures. Just from the Pictures, i mean the Problem you have is called "Pump Jittering". Cant see it on the pictures, but does the stream jump up and down a little after the highest point? If yes, you need a low pass Filter. I would recommend before you change anything, try a low pass filter. Amazing, Freezing cold outside in Norway, we have 20 - 24 Degrees in middle of Europe. If you can control the pup with a regulator, you can really check needs a redesign or not. If you go down to 50 %, may you don't need more.

This is not a easy part, but if you need, i have schematics for DIY project with a microcontroller, also you can store your settings in it. You cant use a regular dimmer you use in the house for Lamps. I tried one, but was not as it should be. You can buy one, but its expensive. You can use one they use on stage, to control big spotlights. "Stage equipment"

Let me know if i can help.
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Therons on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:17 am

Magic Mario,

I would certainly love more information on your controllers, both for the LEDs, Cutter, and pumps. However, please don't take alot of time away from your experments and development. You're doing too good of work to slow down!

Theron

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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:41 am

Maybe you have seen my newest Post here: http://laminar.forumotion.com/laminar-nozzle-talk-and-pictures-f1/what-pump-to-use-t9-15.htm

A Controller for the Pump is not longer necessary if you can control the Water in on your pump.
Cutter, i am not on the last version, i think i will test the New Cutter version. Last Try! I Promise.

The stuff i use is all handmade and programmed for my stuff, don't know it will fit yours. As you know i don't have buttons, i use a old IR-Remote. As i know you do have a PC switchboard for the most of your stuff, what exactly you need?

If you want to learn how to use Microcontrollers, i can help you a lot, its so much Fun! And really Easy. And you will learn a lot. With this in your hands you can do everything you ever wanted! The Compiler is in Basic and Free, you can learn it in 1 Week. Also John was starting more than 1 Year ago and he is very sucsessfull with his microcontrollers (uC). He is using PIC, i would use Atmel, i think the sofrtware is easyer, but i know nothing about PIC. The chips are very cheap, from 2 - 6 $ one.

I don't know what exactly i can give to you. let me know, step by step, then its easier for me.
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:16 am

Magic-nozzle wrote:Hi Filip, WOW, great you got your Pump! Looks very good. Thank you posting this pictures. Just from the Pictures, i mean the Problem you have is called "Pump Jittering". Cant see it on the pictures, but does the stream jump up and down a little after the highest point? If yes, you need a low pass Filter. I would recommend before you change anything, try a low pass filter. Amazing, Freezing cold outside in Norway, we have 20 - 24 Degrees in middle of Europe. If you can control the pup with a regulator, you can really check needs a redesign or not. If you go down to 50 %, may you don't need more.

This is not a easy part, but if you need, i have schematics for DIY project with a microcontroller, also you can store your settings in it. You cant use a regular dimmer you use in the house for Lamps. I tried one, but was not as it should be. You can buy one, but its expensive. You can use one they use on stage, to control big spotlights. "Stage equipment"

Let me know if i can help.

Hi there Smile
And thanx for the feedback.

I have dimmer to dim down the voltage on the pump !
From my (smart home dimmer) ..
But it`s not possible to turn down the speed on this pump, as it run on AC220Volt and only one speed.
(I have tried)

But I dont think the pump speed is the problem ... (other ppl use that flow on the pump)

And about the low-pass filter-tank !
I would love to try out that...
But how do I make one ??
I have the pipes, but I dont know how to connect the water into it?
As my connectors is to small to connect into the "side" on the Tank (if you understand)..
I can only connect it under , on a flat side..
So how do I connect the water plug on the side of the tank...

EDIT: I got an idea, maybe I can connect the input and the output into a tank, and have the input and output on a "pipe" inside the tank..
using diffrent length.. then there will be air to remove the pump jittering Smile

Will that work ?

btw: I know there is some bad english here hehe.. I dont know the english word for this:





and this:


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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:30 am

Just short, i have to go ....

Pump controll, is good because less water, less disturbance.
Can you controll the inlet of the pump like ido now?

On the Video fron John you can see how the Low pass filter is made. Just a Pipe, two caps, bottom inlet, a little upper the outlet, the Tube must be Airthight.

Connectors you need are 1" or 2,5cm.
Your idea sound funny, but just use 2 Pipe connectors 1", much easyer. Why cant you connect to the side? just drill a hole, little smaller than the connector and turn it in with power, That was the way i do.

dont Care ybout your englich, its fine, better than mine. Laughing

Hope this will help.
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:41 am

Hmm..

Intresting...
Just drill a hole and turn it onto the PVC pipe...
But I not so sure if that will be tight ?

I usually need a mutter on the inside, and that is not possible because of the bended pipe..


I did make a picture of my idea of connecting the water on TOP ..




will that work ?
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  John on Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:14 am

I don't see why it wouldn't work. There will probably be more losses because the pump has to push up against gravity, but I don't see why that wouldn't work. Just remember that the more losses due to friction etc. the less flow rate, and less efficient your pump is.

For example. If you look at the first video of mine the Laminar Test I and compare it to Cut Test II you will see that the jump from video to video is a lot less. That is do the the length of the second hose that I install. I just added a regular garden hose in between the filter and the nozzle and it jumps about 25% less now. That's not really a problem for me right now since I have 2 very large pumps that I am planning on using later. It should be able to combat all the losses due to friction with POWER.

I just wanted to remind everyone that there is friction in the system and that the longer the hoses, and the more angles in the plumbing means that there is less output.
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:55 am

Thank you for your input on this John .
And what you say make sense..
There is no need to make more friction and flow loss if it`s not needed Smile

But I dont manage to make any low-pass filter without help !
So I must ask my friend to plastic weld some filters for me..
The plug (hoses?) i have is not possible to just screw into the PVC pipes..
They need the mutter on the back to seal them!


Anyway, I did one more test today outside with the pump...
I did remount everything with NEW straws, and a sponge on the top to slow down the flow speed..
But I got the same result I had yeasterday..

The laminar break apart in the middle of the air :\

To make sure it NOT is a pump problem, I did take in the house on my shower outlet!
On slow flow speed the beam is almost perfect..
But when I crank the power on water at FULL speed, the same thing happend..
It break apart after some feet !

So I guess the laminar tube I have is the problem.
My guess is that I need a 8" pipe and not a 4" like the one I use today..


And I think my neighbors think I`m crazy, because to test the laminar at full power, i did open my bathroom window and point the water beam up in the air and outside haha... (from the 2th floor) tongue
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  John on Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:24 pm

I really wish we all had pictures of the crazy things we have done in order to get our streams to work! Like Mario and his spoons, me in my garage trying to manually cut the stream as fast possible by swing my arm with a putty knife in my hands, and Filip shooting water out his second story bathroom!

I just want to clarify something about your nozzle. What is the order of the different layers in order from input to output. For example, mine (8") is, tangential input, empty chamber, filter chamber (using something like Mario's Fish filter material), empty chamber, straws (7.75 inches), empty chamber, exit.

What is the length of your straws and what is the diameter?

If you reduce the flow output on your pump how far does it jump before it breaks up? How did you make the exit nozzle?

P.S. Everyone's English is great! I'm really envious that everyone can converse on a technical level in a foreign language!
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Therons on Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:33 pm

When your neighbors saw the stream coming out of your bathroom window, Maybe they thought you were quite a man, with a very impressive stream! Embarassed
It would have been interesting to have a camera watching them! Shocked

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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:44 pm

First, thanx about the English Wink but since you live in USA, dont mind correcting if there is something you notice is wrong..
As I gladly like to learn some new words ...

I have a big input, same size as from my pump.. (don't know the exact size)

the pipe is 4" big in diameter.

From bottom there is 2-3cm free air.
Then a sponge 3cm thick, filling the 4" tube..
Then there is 100-300 straws, that is pressed into the tube together.. completely filled on the sides (tight) !
the straws i guess is 20-25cm ..
From the straws to my output is maybe 6-7cm with free air !!

And the "ring" that is used on my output is a metal ring..


here is my 2 test nozzles:




here is my sponge i have in the bottom:




this is my input (have replaced it with a 1cm bigger one)




and this is the output "ring" :

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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:07 pm

liteglow wrote:Hmm..

Intresting...
Just drill a hole and turn it onto the PVC pipe...
But I not so sure if that will be tight ?

will that work ?

I dont use a mutter inside, but my pipe wall is 5mm thick and it fits perfect.
Your Picture, why you dont turn the pipe upside down, then you wont have any problems and no gravity will work against you. This will work, i am shure.
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Therons on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:15 pm

Just to clarify, if you turn your filter tank upside down from your drawing, you should not use the pipes inside.

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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  John on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:41 pm

Yeah, if you turn it around that should work with very little loss.

Something that both Theron and I learned is that you SHOULDN'T have in inlet and the outlet in a co-linear location. If you do the filter isn't as effective as it could be. You still get some jitter. IMO, I think that it works best if you have the inlet and then force the water to find the exit by making a turn.
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:02 pm

John wrote:
Something that both Theron and I learned is that you SHOULDN'T have in inlet and the outlet in a co-linear location. If you do the filter isn't as effective as it could be. You still get some jitter. IMO, I think that it works best if you have the inlet and then force the water to find the exit by making a turn.

Interesting theory Wink
And it sounds very correct I guess..

But to make sure the water dont flow up the first 5-6 straws it hit..
I did place a square duck tape in front of the sponge.
So the water have to bounce back again, and then find it`s way around and up the sponge :-) SO yes i have thought about that !!

But then again, the problem for me is that I dont manage to mount any input on the side on my pipe..
I will have to work on that... just drilled a hole and turn my hoses in it did not work..
Maybe my pipe is thinner ? and maybe harder...


But I have a small theory about my "thin" 4" tube.
If the water travel Fast , I think if the tube is thin, it will no mather what, still travel fast up the tube !
And when the water is travel fast (in the straws) it still will make a turbulence when it comes out from the top of the straws..
So my best guess is that a 4" tube is to small !!!
Because it did work perfect (as in my videos) from the house water outlet, on low flow Smile

Tomorrow I will find a 8" tube, and make another test...

And btw: Thanx again for all input and help Wink
I really enjoy that there is so many active users here only after a few days..
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  Therons on Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:12 pm

We're using 8 inch diameter PVC sewer pipe. John and I both bought scrap pieces from a wholesale supply house.

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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  liteglow on Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:16 pm

Therons wrote:We're using 8 inch diameter PVC sewer pipe. John and I both bought scrap pieces from a wholesale supply house.

Ok..

Yes 8" sounds allot better.. I only have half.

About the prices , I get them for free Very Happy Thanx to a very good friend of mine..
He did also solder me a 30inch tube where I can place my water jet into Smile


edit:

Here is the big box that I will place my nozzles into (under the ground)

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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  John on Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:18 pm

John wrote:
Something that both Theron and I learned is that you SHOULDN'T have in inlet and the outlet in a co-linear location. If you do the filter isn't as effective as it could be. You still get some jitter. IMO, I think that it works best if you have the inlet and then force the water to find the exit by making a turn.



Interesting theory Wink
And it sounds very correct I guess..

I was actually referring to the filter when I wrote this, but it also applies to the nozzle as well.
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Update ! :)

Post  liteglow on Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:21 pm

I did make myself a Air tank today (low-pass filter?) ..
I was in the store and ask for some "simple" connectors to use on the tank..
But the dude did not understand that it was supposed to be a simple test tank..
Remember this was a serious store that provide the industry with 100% top quality products Wink

So he did ask me what I need and where to place them..
He did say : Hmmm ok, understand, ok... let me se...

And after some digging he give me 1 pair of 3\4" water connectors, 1 pair of screw connectors, 4 0-rings gasket, and 2 turn rings !!
I could not say anything else than :OK that is perfect haha..

And the total price for 2 connectors: 100$ !!!!
Anyway, i did pay it and leave quick heh heh..

But here is the result of my low-pass filter tank:



I DONT think I will make any other tank, the price is way to high !!
(and the PVC 4" pipes is made for free = 200$ saved there)


And there is snowing outside today, so no testing this weekend Suspect
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Re: Liteglow`s laminar project

Post  John on Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:30 pm

SNOW!!! ARGH! SNOW IS GETTING IN THE WAY HERE TOO! Why won't it just warm up?!?!!?

It looks very very solid!!!!! I think you could shoot it with a tank and it would still be standing up! Looks good. I'm very excited to see the results.
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