Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:25 am

Thank you. A Friend told me in industrial language Teflon is called PTFE (over here), and he knows a seller, 3 miles next to me *SMILE*. I will try some experiments with Teflon stuff, maybe this help just a little.

I think speed has to do with a good cut, when you can cut as fast as the water is moving, then you have a perfect cut, but with solenoids is too slow, only air pressure or water pressure can have this power i mean.
What you mean the shape, not a flat blade? today i tried so much adjusting the my flat blade i have, no much difference, i have this damn nose when uncut. I really would like to fix this, but how?

Maybe there is a better way with air pressure, to shut the blade in the stream.
But use a compressor and air thank? Hmmm ...

Theron you was working with Air power. Did you have more success with the cutter? The Video looks cool on YouTube, but i don't know how your uncut is looking.


Last edited by Magic-nozzle on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  John on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:03 am

Yeah, what I'm thinking of trying is a different shape of blade. So instead of the flat blade that we have all tried maybe something like;

<-direction->
\\\\////
\\\///
\\//
\/

does that make sense?
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:11 am

Hmmmm, something like a triangle, i think it's worth the work, i will test it.
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  liteglow on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:14 am

John wrote:Yeah, what I'm thinking of trying is a different shape of blade. So instead of the flat blade that we have all tried maybe something like;

<-direction->
\\\\////
\\\///
\\//
\/

does that make sense?

I think I understand what you talk about..
But I did not make sense of that drawing Razz

On my video, you can see that I did bend my cutter so the water did flow away from the nozzle !



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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:28 am

Thank you Filip, i tried a similar way, but not a big difference, flat or tilted, as long the water don't splash back in the stream. THE NOSE - The real big problem is, i think about the speed, because when you uncut, the Time that the knife is needed moving out of the stream, this makes turbulence, the nose.

My Cutter runs on 24V AC maybe i should try with 50V AC.

Filip can you remember how good your uncut was? OK you had a very short Arch, not much pressure on the knife.
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  liteglow on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:35 am

Yes i think you are correct, as long the water don't flow back into the hole output, there is no problem ! tilted ore flat!

My cut was perfect i think..

But it`s hard to tell about my uncut, because I can only test it inside my shower Razz
And it`s only 80x80cm of space to test haha..

When I get my pump I will make some test outside Wink
So far it have only been snow outside, but the summer is here soon now..
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  John on Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:50 pm

What city are you from?

How long is the winter over there?
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  liteglow on Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:46 am

John wrote:What city are you from?

How long is the winter over there?

North in Norway !

The winter is from September - April Wink

so there is 7-8 months of winter here... haha
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Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  JohnJarvis on Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:05 pm

Hi Thought your video was excellent! Many thanks for sharing your ideas with us all. I hope I can be as successful as you. Can you give us some idea where to source the 3mm fibre optic. I am very suprised that is thick enough to provide that much light. Regards John Jarvis.

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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  liteglow on Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:11 pm

JohnJarvis wrote:Hi Thought your video was excellent! Many thanks for sharing your ideas with us all. I hope I can be as successful as you. Can you give us some idea where to source the 3mm fibre optic. I am very suprised that is thick enough to provide that much light. Regards John Jarvis.

Hi And welcome Smile

Glad you join us..
plz share any video\pictures of your project if you have any media..

I not so sure at the moment where to buy fiber.
But I know magic did share the URL where to buy..
Dont remember if he did share it here, if not I think i still got it in my e-mail...

Let me search for it..
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:18 am

JohnJarvis wrote:Hi Thought your video was excellent! Many thanks for sharing your ideas with us all. I hope I can be as successful as you. Can you give us some idea where to source the 3mm fibre optic. I am very suprised that is thick enough to provide that much light. Regards John Jarvis.

Hi John Jarvis, Thank you join the Forum. Its a great pleasure for me to share and think with others.
I buy my fibers from here, This are addresses from Europe, i am sure you find cheaper one in the states, my one 3mm fiber with a black PVC coat is 9.90 $ per meter or 40". IMPORTANT, i use 4 strings, each with a Luxeon 3W HI power LED, driven at Max output 1 A to 1.4 A : http://www.fiberoptic.ch/VerfugbareProspekte.htm , A German Address http://www.lichtdekor.de/product_info.php?info=p17_PMMA-Fiber-3-00mm.html&XTCsid=84ca0a71cedac06374e77bf6d491ade6

Hope this will help. If you need more information on the Luxeons and drivers, just ask.

Mario
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Roto-Cutter

Post  Therons on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:48 pm

Here are some photos of my Roto-Cutter (for loack of a better name). I'm not able to test it until I get my Nozzle rebuilt but I was excited to show it since the concept was hard to understand from my earlier drawing. .


To cut the stream, the baffel travels into the path of the water which diverts the flow about ninety degrees and out the back of the wheel. When the wheel rotates back to "uncut", the rotation of the baffle moves the knife edge up with the stream as it moves across the stream. Hopefully this will be a way to get smoother "uncuts".

[img][/img]

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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  John on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:01 pm

That's pretty cool! I'm excited to see it in working order!
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Therons on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:29 pm

John wrote:That's pretty cool! I'm excited to see it in working order!

Thanks John, Like you, I'm waiting on fiber before I assemble the next version. bounce Tomorrow I hope to get the pipe sections and new end plates cut so I am truly ready for the fiber.

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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:56 pm

WOW, this is a real cool Cutter, looks awesome! Hope it will work as you imagine.
Now i know what you mean when you show me the drawing.
I am very interested in how you control the air pressure, and what kind of parts are needed. I have a lot of knowledge in electronics, but I want to learn more about air pressure control.

Please let us see your results when your nozzle is rebuilt.

Mario
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Fiber questions

Post  Therons on Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:20 am

Mario,

I have a couple of questions about your fiber set-up. From your pictures It appears that the fibers are inside some kind of tube to hold them together. Is it heat shrink or some other material Question . How do you prevent the water from traveling down inside the tube between the fibers Question What method did you use to seal the bundle where it enters the nozzle Question I want to use a compression fitting but I don't know if that is possible with multiple fibers.
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  liteglow on Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:52 am

That cutter looks awesome:)

You have done something I had in my mind for long time..
But I did not know how to build it .

But the idea of uncut the water in the same speed as it travel should make the uncut smoother (i hope) !

Anyway, show the video when you have tested this out Wink

Btw: What about the water that splash back ?


What fiber are you planning to use, I know mario use 3mm fibers.
I did do a test with a 225 fiber strand cable, but I dont like the output, so I dropped it !
I would like to try some 3-7mm fiber cable..
Will buy some when I have money Razz
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Therons on Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:35 am

I hope that the rotation of the cutter blade upward with the water flow will help to make smoother uncuts. We'll see next week. My fear is that the uncut will be better but the cut will be worse Exclamation

The curvature of the cutter blade should divert the entire water stream 90 degrees to the side so there shouldn't be much splash back towards the nozzle. In the video I show the back side of the cutter so you can get a better view of the output side of the wheel.

I am planning on using some of John's 3mm fibers connected to a Rebel Star RGB Tri-Emitter LED's located at the bottom of each nozzle. This will allow the fibers to be a straight run and very short which will help with the fiber cost.

Theron

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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  liteglow on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:06 pm

I got a suggestion, what about using a razor blade on the edge, so it can cut the water with no "splash" ..

As we have razor sharp edge on the nozzle output, why not have razor sharp cutter as well?
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Therons on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:23 pm

liteglow wrote:I got a suggestion, what about using a razor blade on the edge, so it can cut the water with no "splash" ..

As we have razor sharp edge on the nozzle output, why not have razor sharp cutter as well?

I don't know if you can see it very clearly, but I have filed the blade of my circular cutter to sharpen the edge. I think a sharp edge is somewhat important on this type of cutter. Cool

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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:07 am

I tried so many things, and its not a big difference using sharp or thin tin blade. Look at a water stream when slowly using your cutter (manual) in and out, jes you get wet, but you can clearly see where the water is splashing to when cut and uncut.

More important is the Vibration, if your cutter or solenoids make vibration, this i clearly visible and makes disturbance after a uncut. Also extreme important is from where you cut, and the shape of your blade.

I had very god results with a small cutter blade, stabilized from vibration (don't use thin unstabilized material for the BLADE), i cut in a horizontal position, from top down and back. I also made my splash area bigger now, and its getting more perfect than before, looks really nice. If i am finish with this stepper motor process i will add some Pictures and a new Movie.

Mario
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:13 am

Hi Guys

Today i made some successful tests with my new cutter, a Stepper motor with a new Blade and a large Splashing area.
The stream is much better than before, just a little nose, and just a tiny little vibration, much better than with the solenoid.
here is the promised Video.



Can't wait to see your new Cutting tests, i think its a very tricky part, the Cutter.
Mario
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  liteglow on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:04 pm

Mario: That is respect !!

Very nice video, and damn how much work you have putted into the cutter.
All the electronic :WOW:

But I like the result, very nice!
And you are very nice with the cam haha, did follow the water all the way Wink

It seems like you now have a almost perfect laminar jet..
But in the video, it seems like there is some small shaking in the water on the uncut?
Or maybe it can be some splashing water over the hole...

Anyway, that is more perfect than needed i think Smile
Congratulation hehe
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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Therons on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:20 pm

I stopped your video several times to look closely at the uncut. It appears that the noise on the uncut is very minimal as it exits the nozzle and then gets worse as the stream progresses. I'm wondering if what we are seeing is the effect of air resistance against the tip of the water stream causing it to slow and fall below the main stream? If this is truly the case then there is little more we can do to get a smooth uncut. I think yours is about as good as it can get. Good Job!!!

Oh, Sorry about your battery, but at least you saved your house Exclamation

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Re: Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:05 am

Thank you Theron and Filip Smile

Yes its not 100% perfect, but ok, i work now too long on this, now its ok. But its still a lot of work, i have to design a new PCB, replace the old pcb in my control box, replace cables, building the pro water tight housing, Re program the Chip. This is all because the change from solenoid cutter to the stepper Motor Cutter. The Pump controll is also no longer needed, because the PRO Pump, oase 5000 eliminates this.

The rest of the turbulence after the uncut is the nature of Water i think, i cant eliminate it. Its not the shaking i think (because there is no big shaking anymore), maybe is the cut uncut not fast enough, but its faster now than a solenoid, and a laminar stream is extreme sensitive when something comes in the stream.

Yes the air resistance is sure something makes the nose longer when its at the end, but there is no way to eliminate it, i don't know how. Do you have a idea? I did so many many many tests, and this is really the best i ever had now.

Cheers mario
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