Patents and cutters

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Patents and cutters

Post  range-park on Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:53 pm

Wet Designs Patents come under Wet Enterprises, serching google patents brings up

Mark Fuller`s 1988 straws laminar patent

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=tmAtAAAAEBAJ

and interestingly 1989 patent for stream diverter AKA Cutter

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=tmAtAAAAEBAJ

using a water jet to divert the stream to drain rather than a mecchanical blade.

seraching from refernenced to and from ppatents brings up some gems like this one

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=-5UhAAAAEBAJ&dq

screens from scotchbrite pads no straws?

some stuff to thnk on

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  Magic-nozzle on Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:01 am

Nice, thank you for your Post. I knew 2 of them, unfortunately no usefull cutter informations. Here is the Original Design with mesures from Mark fuller, only the nozzle build in 1970's.

http://home.utah.edu/~bjl8/nozzle_metric.gif
And here interesting liks and description:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/343203.html
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  covewi on Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:06 am

Heres the Google patent with Fullers water splitter:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=KbwwAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:50 am

WOW, thank you, its the first time i see this patent, cool! Really a nice concept, maybe it needs just a medium presssure stream to divide the laminar sream. relly nice. and i am shure very effective. thanks.

I have an idea, why not using a blde against a hi pressure water stream and dividing it apart, the chtch system is cool, you stop the water flow and it can drop down. That makes me thinking ... Maybe i try to make a catch box for the water in my cutter system, because i still have problems with the splashing warter falls back in the stream after the uncut. what do you think about?
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  covewi on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:15 am

Extending the length of the whole tube would be a start. That way any cutter system would be enclosed.
Look at the length (height) of the Wet Design tube in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGICRO4it4
They look much larger than we are building.

The idea would be to have a overflow or runoff tube or cut out that would allow the "cut" water to flow back into the water source without causing any
interference.

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  covewi on Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:02 pm

The idea here is to extend the length of the tube and separate the top plate and nozzle from the cutter and cut water.
We could easily extend the top retaining ring and slide another 8" cutter tube over that ring.
The extension would have the cutter and an out flow for the cut water.
A drain tube would feed back to the pump water supply.



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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:48 pm

Nice Pictures Smile, thanks , so, i am not shure i understand this right, how you like to protect the stream from the splashing water. Once the cutter is in the stream, the water shoots 360 deg. away to any side, hit a wall and splash back, or use a bended knife, then the water is going 90 deg. or a little less, but i think the problem is similar. The high water pressure wil splash back in the stream. when you cut, the knife produces hundrets of fine water drops flying out the nozzle. This is also a big problem. Mark fuller had a nice idea divide the stream, 2 catcher will stop the water better. Do you have a cutter running now? Let me know if you do some tests with this new design.
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  covewi on Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:27 pm

I started thinking again today - which can always be dangerous and expensive - but I took apart a "pop up in ground sprinkler head" today



and then hooked it to my garden hose with the resulting spray



I aimed it at the laminar flow and "split" - "V"ed the stream



It does not look pretty but the laminar stream was split (you can see the V) and the water that looks like its in the middle of the V is actually angled forward or down.

This cutter system has potential... I will get a lawn sprinkler water solenoid and start designing a water cutter prototype.

Input on ideas please.

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  Magic-nozzle on Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:53 pm

Hey this is cool, i was experimenting months ago with a high pressure cleaner, but then i didnt know about to divert the stream, i try tu cut it .. no sucsess, i cant wait to see more of your new cutter.
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  John on Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:21 pm

I like the idea! A couple of thought/questions.

1. The water "blade" looks very promising. How does the nose and the tail look when you cut as such. Do you think you have enough pressure to cut with the sprinkler valve?

2. The major problem that I can see using an approach like that is the valve. How do you valve fast enough to be accurate enough but not create a "water hammer" effect on the fast by closing too quickly. I'm sure it can be done since you see it done all of the time in pressure washers. A sprinkler valve probably won't work fast enough, maybe you can modify it.

Interesting approach. I like it. I can't wait to see what you come up with.
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  dlkempf on Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:33 pm

It's funny that the topic of a water cutter has finally come around. A water cutter was my first attempt at building a cutter for my nozzle. I think I mentioned it when I posted about my "rudimentary thumper" (http://laminar.forumotion.com/laminar-nozzle-talk-and-pictures-f1/rudimentary-thumper-unit-t64.htm) because I was using the solenoid valve for the cutter to "knock" on my nozzle.

After a couple of failed attempts at building a solenoid driven mechanical cutter and a disaster I had with trying to use a windshield wiper to drive a cutter I decided to revisit the water cutter last weekend where I once again had some (limited) success.

I was using the solenoid valve (from Orbit) which was connected to a separate pump. I placed a hose cap on the outlet side with a very small hole drilled in it to create a thin beam to cut the stream. The pressure was good and it was enough to cut and bend the stream. The major problem was the splash from the "V". The momentum from the stream was still carrying the water up and through the through the hole I had cut in the splash guard. The splashing and all of the excess water from the stream and the cutter was getting caught up in the laminar flow after the cutter was turned off. Also, the idea of having to run an extra pump to power the cutter is a bit of a hassle, as well.

I then got the idea to remove the solenoid valve form the orbit sprinkler and use it on it's own. The solenoid has a built in spring which pushes it back out when power is removed and it's already waterproof (as it is designed for wet applications) so when it is placed close enough to the stream it will poke into the laminar stream and cause the stream to split into the "V".

This idea still had the problem of the extra upward splashing which I was having a bit of trouble trying to figure out how to get it under control. Then when I saw the schematic for the patent on the water cutter I realized that maybe all it needs is a separate isolation chamber for the cutting to take place after the stream leaves the nozzle.

Anyway I spent my lunch hour (and a half) at the local home improvement center and I think I picked up everything I need to construct the addtional chamber for the cutter.

I'm going to give it a try over the next few days and I'll post back my results...good, bad or otherwise.

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  liteglow on Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:45 pm

I`m very glad the "Cutter" problem is a new topic now Very Happy

I`m curious to see what ideas ppl have to share..
The "split" idea form google seems very interesting.
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  covewi on Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:26 pm

Please check out this patent

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=sB4DAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,085,988

especially page 4 and 5 to see how this water cutter capture system works...

Its great

dlkempf you have a PM

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  beauwatt on Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:04 pm

why can?t a cutter be installed inside the nozzle? before it enters the nozzle? no splash / no drain?

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  covewi on Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:35 pm

I feel that anything ( the cutter mechanism) that would have to be inside the top 2" area of "still" turbulent free water would interfere with the lack of turbulence ie. would cause turbulence.

Besides we need to cut the laminar stream - off and on.
Cutting the flow of the water on and off before exiting the nozzle would not accomplish the same effect as cutting the laminar stream because the laminar stream has not even been formed yet.

Just my initial thoughts.

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  John on Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:03 am

I too feel that having a mechanism inside would only disrupt the laminar stream.

The nozzles are very sensitive to any disturbance. Even the slightest tap will disrupt the stream, that is why some people have a "knocker." The reason why knockers work is because it is so sensitive.
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  Magic-nozzle on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:38 am

Hmmm, but water has the same problem, it shakes when splasing against the body of the nozzle or a catching area. a good thing is to separate the cutter complete from the nozzle, why not? so you have just nothing of the vibs on it. Just thinking .... , someone tryed this allready.
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  John on Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:08 am

I agree completely! And if you put the valve down further perhaps before the nozzle, then I don't think you will have the constant pressure that you need for the nozzle. You would have to build up the pressure then it would shoot. It would jump, it would grow.
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  dlkempf on Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:52 am

I made some real progress this weekend with the isolation chamber design...it works good, but not great.

The single solenoid that I have does a pretty good job of splitting the stream, but the problem
(as seems to be the case with all cutters) is the speed. It takes too long for the solenoid
to cut all the way through the stream so there is some visible breakup of the stream above the
cutter until the solenoid gets all the way through the stream.

I think I may be able to correct this problem by using 2 solenoids...both cutting the stream from
opposite sides at the same time.

I just ordered a couple more orbit sprinkler valves so I can get the solenoids out of them.
With any luck I will have them before next weekend so I can continue with the experiment.

It's getting a bit late in the year here in the North East so my window of opportunity is slowly
shutting as the cold weather approaches.

Here are some pictures I took of the cutter isolation chamber design. I would have included some
video but I lent my camera to my father-in-law for his vacation.

Any thoughts or comments would be most welcome!

Laminar Nozzle
The laminar nozzle is made from 6" pvc. The top itself is constructed from a threaded clean-out which allows me to easily
remove the top for maintenance. By not screwing the top all the way down it leaves some threads exposed to which I can
attach another threaded cleanout to act as a cutter isolation chamber mount.






Cutter Isolation Chamber Mount
The cutter isolation chamber mount is a 6" pvc cleanout inserted into a 6" pvc coupling and a 6" to 4" pvc bushing.
I drilled some holes in the bottom edge to allow excess water to drain properly.








Isolation Chamber Mount Installed
This is the isolation cutter chamber mount installed on top of the nozzle.






Isolation Chamber Funnels
Each end of the chamber is made up of a 4" test cap with the center cut out and a plastic funnel inserted to act
as a deflector shield on both the top and bottom of the funnel to help protect the stream.






Isolation Chamber Cutter Mount
Here are all of the parts that make up the cutter mechanism. The chamber is 4" pvc.




Isolation Chamber Cutter Installed
A look inside the chamber with the cutter solenoid installed. The chamber is 4" pvc.




Isolation Chamber Cutter and Funnel Installed
A look inside the chamber with the inlet funnel installed. The chamber is 4" pvc.




Isolation Chamber Fully Assembled 1
The fully assembled cutter chamber. The chamber is 4" pvc. Again there are holes drilled in the bottom
of the chamber to allow the excess water to run out. I have found this design to be a bit of a nuisance
as the draining water sounds like a toilet flushing. I will have to build another model with a drain tube
to help keep things quiet.




Isolation Chamber Fully Assembled and Installed Side View
Here is a side view of the cuter chamber fully installed




Isolation Chamber Cutter, Funnel and Pads UnCut Stream
I added some scouring pads to the inside of the chamber to help absorb the splash and reduce the noise.
Here is what the action looks like inside the chamber while the stream in in tact.




Isolation Chamber Cutter, Funnel and Pads Cut Stream
I added some scouring pads to the inside of the chamber to help absorb the splash and reduce the noise.
Here is what the action looks like inside the chamber during a stream cut.




Isolation Chamber Cutter, Funnel and Pads UnCut Stream
This is the fully installed cutter isolation chamber while the stream is not being cut




Isolation Chamber Cutter, Funnel and Pads Cut Stream
This is the fully installed cutter isolation chamber while the stream is being cut


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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  covewi on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:08 pm

Check these out:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=uNWGAAAAEBAJ&dq=laminar+fountains
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=IEeNAAAAEBAJ&dq=laminar+fountains
http://www.google.com/patents?id=SMkhAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://www.google.com/patents?id=kNMnAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  liteglow on Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:16 pm

dlkempf: (strange nick tho...) but the idea of the "splash" chamber was interesting and pretty awesome Very Happy
I love the idea of how you reduce the splash, and the sound !!
That is for sure something I will think about next summer in my garden Wink


cheers
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  Magic-nozzle on Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:21 am

I found a new patent from wetdesign
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=jIUcAAAAEBAJ&dq=inassignee:wet+inassignee:design&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap=&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=

Nice construction!
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Re: Patents and cutters

Post  liteglow on Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:07 am

Magic-nozzle wrote:I found a new patent from wetdesign
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=jIUcAAAAEBAJ&dq=inassignee:wet+inassignee:design&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap=&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=

Nice construction!

Yea nice Smile
btw, look at the picture, it says: "Service Tunnel" !! haha..
We talk BIG fountains here .. not something you throw in your small fish pond lol!
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