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Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project

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Post  Magic-nozzle Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:48 pm

Hi Folks, i just want to show my new Video, I finished now my light setup and have more than 60- 70% more light in my Water-arch.

I hope you like it.

Mario




Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project DSC_00270005

Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project DSC_00220001


Last edited by Magic-nozzle on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  liteglow Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:11 am

nice pictures Smile

Welcome to the forum.
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Post  liteglow Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:23 pm

I did find out about the images..

you did only use: www.image.jpg

U forgot to use http:// Wink
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Post  Magic-nozzle Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:46 pm

Thank you, now i know how.
Regards

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Post  John Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:54 pm

It's always a pleasure to see the best of the best DIY laminar nozzles! Magic-nozzle is to my nozzle knowledge the best out there! I only hope to approach his expertise someday!
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Post  Magic-nozzle Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:06 pm

Hello John, thank you, great to have you here in this forum. Very Happy Hope to see some Pics from your great work here in the future. And please send your cool BLOG link.
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Post  liteglow Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:12 am

Hi

wow that is so nice !!
Did you use the fiber injector lense there ?
What did you do to get the light so much brighter ? Very Happy

I must say I`m impressed of your work.. really really like it !
Congratulation for the nice job you have done there.

I want to know How you did the light so good Wink

btw: is the "knocker" a must to have?
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Post  John Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:25 am

Regarding the knocker,

I was playing around with mine last night and I was thumping the bottom of the nozzle and it would produce a beautiful little ripple in the water. Is that how you reproduce the knocker? Do you just use a solenoid to reproduce that? Is it just a pull solenoid with a spring return? Do you actually thump the bottom, the top, or housing? Does anyone have pictures on how they did this?
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Post  liteglow Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:28 am

John wrote:Regarding the knocker,

I was playing around with mine last night and I was thumping the bottom of the nozzle and it would produce a beautiful little ripple in the water. Is that how you reproduce the knocker? Do you just use a solenoid to reproduce that? Is it just a pull solenoid with a spring return? Do you actually thump the bottom, the top, or housing? Does anyone have pictures on how they did this?

I dont know the setup, and where to place the solenoid !

But yes you are correct, all you need is a solenoid that shake the nozzle Smile
Maybe have a ballast on the solenoid so it make a bigger "shake" Wink

I think a knocker can be a nice replacment if you DONT have any cutter..
But I dont think that I need both a cutter and a knocker on the same nozzle !
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Post  John Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:24 am

Magic-Nozzle!

That video is awesome! I finally got the chance to watch it! That is amazing! You did a great job of filming and talking at the same time. I always have a hard time with that! I'm still amazed by the quality of the stream and with the FIBER OPTICS being soooooooo close to the brass nozzle.

Question. How do you hold the fiber opitcs in place once they are past the straws? Do you do anything special to hold them there?
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Post  Magic-nozzle Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:08 am

Hello Guy's, thank you so much for your compliments about my light setup Very Happy .

You Questions, i start with the Knocker: Yes i think this is a must if you plan to have light in your Nozzle.
You cant see the effect in the video, because the camera cant catch this great flashes in the stream.
To Watch what a knocker is looking, just have a look at this video, not mine, but it looks like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05VcA081uXA&feature=related

In the following Picture you can see how i made my Knocker. Just a Aluminum tube, a steel core, not stainless!(Is not magnetic), and on one end of the alu tube a self winded coil, its easy, with a cupper thread 0.3 mm, 500 - 600 windings, you need to test how much power you need. the core has no spring, just the gravity is bring it back. I use 12V and a PWM output on my uController to produce 3 different strengthens.

Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Knocker_Coil
Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Cutter_finalised3

*** THE FIBER AND LED *****
As you know, i use 4x 3W Luxeons (Red, Green, 2x Blue) 4 Fibers with 3mm diameter. The ends high polished!
Direct, with no Fiber injector, from the LED (touching the led with the fiber) to the Nozzle. In the center of my nozzle (Bottom to the last chamber) i mounted a tube, right size for 4 fibers, the tube is holding in place by the thick 1/2 inch bottom of the nozzle, in the nozzle is just holding a little bit by the straws and the grid mesh i mounted. the last 2 1/2 inch the fibers are free, just a shrinking isolator around and in the center a strong 2 - 3 mm brass stick to hold iT STRAIGHT. You must test how close to the end your nozzle can handle, closest is in my case less than one inch. Only since i have mounted the brass nozzle (John's Idea) i have such a cool water stream, before, when i came close to the outlet the water had terrible turbulence.
I optimized the Constant circuit and drive now with 980 mA for green and Blue, and 1400 for the Red LED, maximum power! A very cool thing i found out, if you put some cooling liquid for steel cutting in the water, just a little bit, the water becomes a little milky, with no light you cant see a thing, but by night ... extreme bright! I thin this is all about.

Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Fiber_outlet

***** MY NEW AIR VALVE ****
I now have a perfect Solution for the Air valve. I made some Pictures, should explain everything.
Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Air_Valve
Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Air_Valve_mounted

Function: when the Nozzle is filling up with water, the little sharp brass rod let the air out. When the nozzle is full, the water is pressing out, the little brass rod is closing the valve at the end.

That's all

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Post  liteglow Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:03 am

Thanx for sharing the photos Very Happy
I must say I`m impressed with your work..
It`s almost like I just want to buy 4 from you haha.. then I dont have to bother myself making any Razz

But half the fun is to build and make this stuff Wink

I just want to ask one question, if you REMOVE the straws..
And replace it with a sponge ... what result do you have then ?

I did make one laminar jet, and in the bottom I have a big sponge.. then the water float up the pipe with NO straws..
The water was perfect on the output !

So i think that if there is "low power" on the laminar, I guess we dont need the straws?

But to be safe, i think maybe it`s best to use it anyway...


What I need to find now is some fiber optic cables !
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Post  John Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:51 am

liteglow wrote:Thanx for sharing the photos Very Happy
I just want to ask one question, if you REMOVE the straws..
And replace it with a sponge ... what result do you have then ?

I did make one laminar jet, and in the bottom I have a big sponge.. then the water float up the pipe with NO straws..
The water was perfect on the output !

So i think that if there is "low power" on the laminar, I guess we dont need the straws?

But to be safe, i think maybe it`s best to use it anyway...

Technically anything moving slow enough is laminar. On my faucets at home if you turn them down low enough you will get the crystal clear laminar stream. It's when you turn up the flow that it breaks up and become turbulent. IMO, the straws are the most critical part to making the stream laminar. The length and the diameter of the straws all come in to play as to how large of a flow rate it can handle before it starts to break up.

I believe the way it works as the water enters the big pipe the water is moving in every direction and at various speeds. Once the water starts to enter the pipe the water on the edges moves slower due to friction and surface tension. As the water exits the end of the straw (provided the straw is long enough) you will have a parabolic velocity profile. Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project H006%20parabolic%20flow%20profile

This is for a blood vessel but it works. So as the water exits the straw you have a parabolic velocity profile, and with all of the straws exiting with the same profile as the water progresses to the exit the water mixes together to create a uniform velocity profile across the entire big tube. Essentially it averages out the speeds, and everything is moving at the same speed in the tube. It progresses toward the exit as it shoots out the exit. Everything is still moving at the same speed (more or less).

So the important part to this is to make sure that you have straws that are long enough to handle the flow that you want. There are equations to help you determine the length of the straws, but they are pretty difficult to use if you don't have the Reynolds number.
If you are going to use smaller diameter straws you will be able to reduce the length that is needed for the straw section. However, doing so will increase the resistance since there is more surface area and therefore more friction /surface tension between the water and the straws.
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Post  Magic-nozzle Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:38 pm

Wow, great explanation, i couldn't say it better. If we look at professional Nozzles, a few of them don't use straws, they use filter and a strainer metal plate, with 300 little holes, the plate is not thicker than 2 - 3 mm, and it works very well and need just a little space against straws. I did not test it but i have seen some drawings in a manual.
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Post  John Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:02 am

Do you remember where you saw that manual with the strainer metal plate? I'd be interested to find out how that design worked.
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Post  Magic-nozzle Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:00 am

I was looking around and found something interesting, see this repair parts http://www.sunwind-klaeui.ch/oaseersatzteilkatalog_2008.pdf from Oase, on Page 59 and 60 (also in English) you can see how the nozzle of them work. I can see they use the Power led direct in the nozzle, interesting.

Here is the secret they use (in English):
http://www.teich-center.com/bilder/oase/jumping_jet/Jumping_Jet_Rainbow_star/50052_jumping_jet_rainbow_star_multi.pdf

Look at page 25 Maintenance and cleaning, You can read what they use, and on Page 6 you can see who is who. diffusor plate (46), screen (45) and 4 is the foam. But what is screen 45?
What i would give to see one Jumping_Jet open and have a look inside at the technique.

This is also very cool, a manual only in german but with Pictures, how to install it in your garden.
http://www.oase-livingwater.com/wg/data/media/downloads/we_waterdesign_de.pdf

This will help you, please post your meaning about it.
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Post  Magic-nozzle Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:33 am

Hi Folks

Yesterday i finished my stand for the nozzle. As you can see, i mounted my nozzle to a heavy stone plate and can adjust any high between 40 an 90 degrees. The gray cover is the splasher, it brings the water back when the cutter is on. Inside i made some foam to reduce the noise during cut, very recommended.

Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Nozzle_Stand

Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Nozzlestand_closeup
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Post  Magic-nozzle Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:39 am

A New test with my nozzle, in the Garden. I was trying to reduce the splash sound after a Cut, Successful with a foam, others use this kind of foam in aquarium as Filter, its a kind a filter Sponge.
And Yes, i have too much spare time this long Weekend. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

looks like this
Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project FiSchaum1

And here my new Video


Have Fun
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Post  liteglow Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:47 am

Wow thanx for the PDF files Very Happy
It was some nice info there to study....

You got green garden outside now ?
I`m jealous, it`s still snow in my garden.. but it`s going away the next weeks..

Your laminar looks perfect Wink
As I ses on the video, it seems like the cutter is still your problem... hmz

Is your solenoid moving to slow ?
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Post  Magic-nozzle Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:27 am

Thank you Filip, i like it to doing research about nozzles.
I don't know if any solenoid can be faster than the one i have?
Here little Video: Speedtest, is yours Faster?



When they are too fast, you have a earthquake in the nozzle, not good for the stream.

What do you think about making a cutter like they use in camera lenses, this would be perfect, closes exactly everywhere at the same time. look this picture.

Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Irisblende

What you mean, is it difficult to build one? i really like the idea. But i don't like to start again, this cutter takes the most time of my nozzle, and is still not perfect but usable.
Let me know what you think.
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Post  liteglow Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:00 pm

Hmm your cutter is very fast..
Same speed as mine Smile

I guess the speed will be "almost" the same on every 12volt solenoid..

Ah you did find a camera light shutter Smile that is a smart idea..
But I actually don't know ?

I still think that the idea of "cut" the beam in the same speed it travel is the best...
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Post  Therons Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:36 pm

Mario - You're amazing! You truly have resolved most of the issues.
I've seen some of your info and videos elsewhere and have talked about you with John (we live within a half hour).

I appreciate the invitation to the forum that you left me on my Youtube video of the laminartest1.
I have thought quite a bit about the cutter but I'm not sure I have a good answer. There are two options that I would like to pursue. 1. Use two opposing cutters that have half circle cut-outs on the edges that come together. This would be a start on the idea of the "camera shutter" mechanism. I also think that opposing action of the cutters may help to ballance the movement thus reducing the amount of jarring to the unit. 2. The second method would be to use a verticle wheel with a diverter plate that covers about one quarter of the wheel. The selenoid would rotate the wheel moving the diverter plate into the stream. This would cause the stream to spray away from the nozzle thus reducing the amount of splash back towards the nozzle. Also, when the wheel rotates into the open position, the diverter plate would move up following the stream travel thus (hopefully - depending on timing) "un-cutting" the stream at one point in the flow. I have attached a diagram that will hopefully explain the concept a little better. The red shows the plate in the cut or diverting position and the blue is the diverter plate in the open or uncut position.
Magic_Nozzle's Laminar Project Cutter10
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Post  John Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:24 pm

Another idea would be a motor constantly spinning at a high speed. This would be attached to a clutch device (where we would get this I don't know) where it could engage and disengage at your command. This would engage some sort of wheel cutting device like Theron's idea.

The advantage of this is that your motor is already spinning at the high speed. All it needs to do is engage the clutch to cut.

I don't know. Just thinking outloud here.
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Post  Magic-nozzle Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:38 pm

Therons wrote:Mario - You're amazing! You truly have resolved most of the issues.
I've seen some of your info and videos elsewhere and have talked about you with John (we live within a half hour).


Hello Theron
Nice to have you here in the Forum, thank you for following the invitation. Very Happy
Second thank you for your compliments Embarassed but i am just like you, big boys playing with water and have Fun to build and invent cool stuff like this.
Your first idea for a Cutter is cool, cut like a scissor. If i have time, maybe i want to try it to build one, but its a lot of work and when i don't have success.

The second one i don't understand exactly what it is, maybe because my English is not so well.

The other idea i had, to use not a metal plate to cut, but a Teflon plate, the water can easily glide on the knife and has not that hard scratching effect. not sure this will help, and the bigger Problem, i don't know where to find TEFLON, I can beak apart a pan ... *GIGGLE* OK better not.

JOHN: Your idea sounds interesting to, but i see, easy cutting and perfect uncut, not a easy Job.
The Problem of the uncut increase when the water pressure is higher, with less pressure its easier to have a nice uncut.


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Post  John Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:12 pm

There is a material like plastic that is used a lot for bushings, and it is naturally slick like teflon. It's called Delrin. It's pretty similiar to Nylon. http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=1f5lvhj

Something like that might work instead of teflon. It's really easy to machine.

I'm think that the problem might not be the speed of the cut, but the shape of the blade.
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