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What Pump to use ?

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John
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Post  Magic-nozzle Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:17 am

liteglow wrote:
John wrote:That would be AWESOME! I would love to try that. If you want I will contribute to that cause. I'll send you my dimensions of the pipe.
Nice Wink
I did maybe think that using a glass plate not would be any success (becouse, why dont Oase use it then....) !
But in my head, I would think that a glass drilled hole must be perfect Very Happy
I will do a test on it next week..
I will call them on Monday and have them to drill a test for me.

hey, what a cool idea, using glass! That make sense. Oase don't use that because its not good for serial production I think. If your glass will not work (but i am sure it will work), i made one for you from brass as i mentioned earlier.

2000$ for a Oase Nozzle is a lot, and half the fun, but really, if i had a dealer here, i would pay 200$ just to have a look inside.
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What Pump to use ? - Page 2 Empty Ups.. I DID IT AGAIN

Post  Magic-nozzle Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:48 am

My tests with the stepper Motor was very successful! Now i have just a little tiny nose, not more than 1 inch or less at the end when it falls into the water and less turbulance in the stream.

Had some problems when i start, but now i have a extreme cool cut, better than with my solenoid, its similar fast, but no vibration and complete, really complete noiseless! Amazing! I can program now how fast the cutter is and i have complete control about direction and speed. The problem is when i drive too fast, more than 2500 microseconds between the steps, the knife is going out of control during sluggishness.
Too bad, my test with the pece of paper was with 1000 microseconds steps and was much faster.

I found really a nice solution to make all watertight. The Solution called "stern tube" (Google it... God bless the internet Smile ), this is needed in ships and submarines, works perfect for a Cutter. I adapted it to my Stepper Cutter and build a small version. Is so easy now to watterthight things with a moving part outside. Cool
The motor driver needs a little electronic, but its not that much.

Hmmmm, i think about change my solenoid to the Stepper motor. I will do a little more Tests but its freaking cool. bounce
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What Pump to use ? - Page 2 Empty Need help !

Post  liteglow Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:04 am

I going to rebuild some new nozzles now !
And I want to make sure I have the correct sizes.

magic, and John.

What size do you use on your nozzle?
I want to know the Water output inside diameter (the drilled brass ring)
And I wonder how long the tank is inside !

I did try a bigger output hole on my nozzle today (15mm) , and the result was pretty bad. but this was in the shower..

Thanx for info.
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Post  liteglow Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:05 am

ahh.. and btw: The stepper motor sounds pretty awesome !
But for myself I think I will use solenoids, because the stepper motor include to much electronic work Razz

But I love to see the results from you magic water man Wink hehe
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Post  John Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:55 pm

video? Where's the video?
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Post  John Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:42 pm

I going to rebuild some new nozzles now !
And I want to make sure I have the correct sizes.

magic, and John.

What size do you use on your nozzle?
I want to know the Water output inside diameter (the drilled brass ring)
And I wonder how long the tank is inside !

I did try a bigger output hole on my nozzle today (15mm) , and the result was pretty bad. but this was in the shower..

**1" is equal to 2.5 cm**

My first attempt was a 4" diameter nozzle. I got mine working and it seemed to be about the same amount of flow/output that you were getting just before it would break up. I never really developed the 4" nozzle correctly because I realized that I wanted about 2-3 times the distance that I was getting so I decided to upgrade. **Note: I BELIEVE that the 4" is probably capable of a 3ftx3ft arch.**

My current design is an 8" nozzle, and very very long. The overall length is somewhere between 20" and 22". The overall distance isn't really known because it doesn't matter. What does matter is the internal guts of it and the length thereof.

From inlet to outlet.

1. First chamber is a 2" chamber of empty space. **The water enters tangentially into the chamber and swirls around. **
2. Second 2" filter chamber
3. Third 2" chamber of empty space
4. Fourth 7.75" of regular size drinking straws
5. Fifth 2" of empty space.

Total length is 15.75" long. I left plenty of space at the top and bottom of the pipe just in case of something happened and I needed more.

I believe that the total length can be cut down if you are willing to sacrifice some of the clarity in the nozzle at the upper end of it's range. I wasn't. I haven't even fully tested my to find out what the maximum length is, but what I do know is that it will reach and arc of 4.5 ft high, and about 12 ft long without so much as a blemish in it. I'm not saying that to brag. I just want to let you know that when you sacrifice length you sacrifice the clarity.

Each chamber is sectioned of by using window screen material (mine happens to be a vinyl type material). The screens are held in place by ring that are cut out the 8" diameter pipe.

To make an internal ring:

Once you have cut your ring to the desired thickness, then simple cut it once. Insert it into the pipe and measure the distance mark it, but DO NOT CUT IT THERE. Cut it so that the ring will be too big still. That way if you screw up at least you can cut it again. I have my rings so that they are a bit too tight and you really have to push them hard to get them to fit inside. Once they are inside they move easier.

So according to my chamber dimensions, I have 5 rings, 4 of which are 2" in length, and one that is 7.75" long. There are those that don't have a ring for the straw section. I don't know which is better.

Besides the lengths of the chambers, the two biggest factors as to getting your nozzle to shoot as far as you want it too is to have.

Other important factors:
1. The exit nozzle will be an important part to getting your nozzle to look laminar all the way through. If you don't have a perfect circular hole then the exit nozzle will add turbulence to the stream. The exit nozzle must have an opening like a V. The reason for this is that the water wants to stick to anything due to surface tension. The less surface for the water to stick to the easier it will be for the water to remain laminar. As far as I know, you can have any size output diameter, but my understanding is the larger the diameter the more difficult to get it to remain laminar. I recommend staying somewhere in the range of 0.5 inches in diameter.

2. The tangential input. The input really should be non-axially. The reason being is you are forcing the water to move faster in the center, and that is bad. The entire object of the laminar nozzle is to get the water to move at the same speed. If you are forcing the water to move faster through the center then you are defeating yourself.

3. Low pass filter. If you are using a pump (and maybe even some taps from the house) you need to have a low pass filter in order to have the water remain constant. A pump isn't entirely constant. It pulse the water. In order to smooth that pulsing out to a constant flow you need a low pass filter. They are simple to build.

4. Air Bleeding valve. You need to have some sort of valve (whether it be a manual as mine is, or a automatic like magic's valve) which will allow air to escape. When you first turn on your nozzle it is full of air, as it begins to fill up most of the air will escape through the nozzle, but not all of it. The air bleeding valve will allow the rest of the air to escape. This will help the laminar stream as well.
They are pretty simple. All you need is something that will allow the air to pass but not the water. Mine is manual (for the time being). It's just a valve that is used for the water dispenser for the refrigerator. It's nothing special. Magic has something that is much better because it is automatic.


Last edited by John on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Magic-nozzle Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:35 am

Hi John, WOW, what a great tutorial. Great Work. I don't know what to say, or to add, it's perfect, and explains everything.
All you need to add, but this can be done later, is a simple Air Valve, to remove the air when filling up on top of the nozzle. Air makes turbulence and a farting sound from time to time Laughing

Just to test it, hold the nozzle after fill up in a upright position, let the air our, then tilt it and you don't have any air inside.

I have a scratch from a Pro nozzle that needs no external low pass filter, yes, the low pass filter is a special chamber, at the outer wall in the nozzle, too difficult for us to build i think, but nice to know.
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Post  liteglow Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:57 am

Wow John !!
And thanx for all the info Smile
That really help me allot..
I`m going maybe today and WELD some polyurthane tubes Smile
And as you can understand, it really have to be the correct sizes....

I love the tutorial you give.. but have only 1 question.
What is "non-axial" ? Embarassed

Magic: Low-pass filter built in should be easy?
Just make a chamber in the bottom of the nozzle with air and water..
And you add one more water connector below the top of the lowest chamber (like a normal filter)..
Then it will be "built in" ..
But that need the nozzle to be 3-5" longer size..
Maybe?

Smile

Anyway, thanx again for sharing the info..
Ahh.. one more question, I dont think you did mention the size of the brass ring output hole ?
I think I need to have it like 12mm (half 1") what do you think..
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Post  Therons Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:31 pm

Here is the URL for a picture that should help to understand the Non-axial concept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIRCLE_LINES.svg In the picture, the blue CORD line would closely illustrate the non-axial, tangent input of the water in John's prototype. Also if you look at John's pictures you will notice that the input pipe enters on the side and slightly off center.

The diameter of John's brass nozzle hole is 1/2 inch and has a steep bevel so the edge of the hole is very sharp. You don't want to stick your finger in it Crying or Very sad

Also, on the internal low pass filters, perhaps something like a 1/2 inch piece of soft closed cell foam placed on the bottom of the input end of the tube would be an easy way to add a pump jitter filter in addition to the inline filters we are all building. The closed cell would maintain air within the cells and keep water out so that it would always be compressive to the fluctuations in the pump flow and pressure.

One other thing about John's design, his input connection is an 18 inch long, 1 inch solid PVC pipe. We don't know how important this is but I have read in some patents that there is a benefit in having a straight input line. Question

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Post  John Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:44 pm

Exactly Therons! Nobody should be ashamed of asking questions! That's the reason that brought us all together in the first place! Keep asking questions!!!!!


I edited my post from earlier to include more details about the brass ring, and the air bleeding valve. Thanks for bring that to attention! Let me know if there is any information missing from the post. Once we get that so that it included all of the information for a normal nozzle, we should copy it and move it to a sticky post, but not yet.


This forum is really awesome! Keep those comments coming!
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Post  Magic-nozzle Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:27 am

It's a real crazy great Forum, i love it! To help, to Talk and red about your cool project. THAKS ALL OF YOU!
Explain and share infos.

Mario
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Post  Magic-nozzle Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:34 am

John wrote:video? Where's the video?
Let me work a view days on it, make it as good as possible .. video is comming soon in your home Cinema Very Happy
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Post  John Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:28 am

I can't wait!

I'm working on my cutter still. I tried making the pieces that I needed at my house, but because of the accuracy needed I was not able to make it. I have a machinist helping me out, and the parts that I need should be done by the end of the week. So maybe we will see something this weekend instead.
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Post  Magic-nozzle Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:05 pm

I am so agitatedly to see your new cutter! I hope this will be the perfect one.
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Post  John Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:19 am

me too! There is still a lot to do on it, and I have the tendency to rush things when I get too excited and just want to have it built so that I can test it. So I will have to be calm and work slowly so that I don't mess it up accidentally.
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Post  Magic-nozzle Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:44 am

*Giggle* lol! me too. Its always the same, rush, mess up, doit again .. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
But next time, .. Rush, mess up again. scratch
This Week i dont have lot of time, too much Work.
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Post  John Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:03 am

You'd think we would learn from the first time around!
confused
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Post  Old Timer Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:11 pm

Hello All
First entry. Just got stared with this and going for the pump What size for a 12ft arch and 6 ft high. Or am I trying for tooooo much.
Has anyone tryed a slid type cutter accross the the flow. Push-- -Pull type Rides in a [ v ] track mounted to the top of the nozzel. ????

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Post  John Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:08 am

Hey,

I wrote a tutorial on how to calculate the size of your pump for a desired arc. I used your numbers as an example.

Just know that the value given does not include ANY losses. You will have substantial losses for every angle or turn or reduction in pipe. So you may want to add a couple hundred gallons/hour if you NEED the exact arc. But this will get you pretty close to it.

https://laminar.forumotion.com/laminar-nozzle-talk-and-pictures-f1/how-to-size-your-pump-t105.htm
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Post  covewi Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:18 pm

John wrote:I made a spreadsheet that would calculate the height and length of the arc based on the flow input, how many nozzle you wanted. Unfortunitly my computer crash and I lost it. I could make it up again since I have a screen shot of it on my blog.

It also had the equations for head loss in the pipes.

John would you be able to reproduce this information - with two fountains going I can only get an arch about 6 feet long and 3 feet high before it starts to look bad.
I would bet my swimming pool pump does not measure up. Need to start thinking about an upgrade.

Thanks

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Post  John Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:54 pm

My spreadsheet doesn't take into account laminarosity (or whatever the word is). It just assumes that with a certain pump size and the outlet size you will get a arc of some distance. But if you are interested in how high your arc goes, I can work on the spreadsheet when I get a moment.
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